178: Perfect is the Enemy of Progress with Josh Schermer
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Summary:
As business owners, we have to recognize that not only is our industry in constant flux, but so too are we. Pet Sitter Bible, Dog Walker University, and Sparky Go founder Josh Schermer gives his perspectives on what it means to lead in spite of fear and how to walk the line between being in control and being successful.
He shares from his experiences growing his business, changing its structure, and learning to be a better leader. We also discuss his article on the state of the pet care industry and the perceptions of pet parents on the difference between an independent business and a “gig” worker. Client expectations and purchasing intent are changing, we have to be ready to respond and adapt.
Topics on this episode:
Control vs success
Biggest impact from 2020
What does a “pet sitter” mean in 2021?
His interview with pet parents
Why start Sparky Go?
Main takeaway: We need to be better ambassadors to the next generation on teaching and mentoring them in what it means to be a pet sitter.
About our guest:
Josh Schermer is the founder of SparkyGo.com, and he's a local SEO marketing expert. SparkyGo is a website dedicated to helping independent pet businesses compete against Rover and WAG style apps. Josh began rescuing animals in fourth grade and never stopped. He started his first pet business over twenty years ago, and it quickly became one of the largest pet businesses in America. Josh created Pet Sitter Bible, which was later named Dog Walker University. These brands were dedicated to helping people start and grow their pet businesses. Josh attended the world-famous coaching school "Coachville." He has taken the coaching skills he learned there and applied them to his businesses and SparkyGo. Josh is a vegan, and he believes strongly in finding alternatives to using animals for clothing, food, and lab tests.
Links:
The Gig Conversation: https://www.petsitterconfessional.com/episodes/113
Article on client expectations
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A VERY ROUGH TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE
Provided by otter.ai
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, dog, pet, industry, business, dog trainer, started, dog walkers, pet sitter, rover, sparky, clients, service, changing, services, terms, customers, trainer, coach, app
SPEAKERS
Collin, Josh
00:17
Hi, I'm Meghan.
00:18
I'm Collin. And this is pet sitter confessional,
00:21
and open and honest discussion about life as a pet sitter
Collin 00:24
brought to you by time to pet and pet sitters International. Back on episode 113, Megan and I had what we called the gig conversation after we read an article posted on Sparky go.com by Josh SHERMER, where he interviewed several pet owners from across his area about what they viewed a pet sitter to be and their expectation of a pet sitter that was independent, versus one that was listed on a large Listing Service. Josh joins us today to talk about that article, the kind of research that he put into it and some of his major takeaways and how they're going to impact the industry moving forward. We also talk about what it means to be a leader in our businesses, how to stay streamlined and adaptive to things as the industry continues to change, and how we balance our desire to be in control versus our desire to be successful.
Josh 01:17
Let's get started. Absolutely, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. And, yeah, I've sort of been engaged with animals my whole life, I, you know, starting as a kid, I started rescuing animals. And I told you the stories about this cat that was in this abandoned building across from my house. And all summer, my fourth grade year, I tried to rescue it, and finally rescued it. And like a week or two later, they blew up the building. And you know, from that point on, I just sort of felt, you know, doing something with animals was my calling. So, you know, after college, I moved out to Los Angeles to live with my brother. And I went out there to make a career in the film industry, hopefully. But instead of working on films, they kept rescuing animals. And that sort of became my full time job, and I got a reputation and, and then I decided to come back to New York. And I tried to get a job, I even offered my services for free to you know, places like the Humane Society and ASPCA. But I didn't hear back. So I started a pet service. And, you know, my first customer was a cat. But within a few years, we grew to be one of the larger pet services in the country. And from there, about five or 10 years after starting that I started coaching people and I wrote a book on the industry. And, yeah, that's taken me to now where you know, I'm starting spark and go, which is going to be sort of like a Yelp for the pet industry, where businesses will be able to promote their services, and all the specialties they offer. So, you know, I'm sort of a lifer. In terms of working with animals.
Collin 03:05
Yeah, and I definitely want to dive into Sparky, go here a little bit later, you mentioned that you, you mentioned you grew your business to one of the largest in the country. But after a while, you can change your mind about philosophy of what a business should look like. So you change the structure one point, why did you decide?
Josh 03:25
Yeah. The big ideas that I you know, I lost control. At a certain point, it just, it got so large, it got so large that, you know, I wouldn't remember all the customers names or dogs names, and, and it just didn't feel right. And you know, I had this mindset that no one else to do my job that you're so I did the job at 10 people when I should have been doing the job. And you know, like five people, as we say, you know, as an entrepreneur, you're always going to do more jobs. And you said, right, but yeah, I had a problem giving up control to someone to help me out. And it was overwhelming. I mean. And so what happened around that time, is I started studying to be a business coach, a personal coach. And I was taught this concept of coach approach to leadership, which is you take the mindset of coaching, but you bring it to a workplace. And so instead of trying to create this company with employees, it really changed to this idea where I was almost coaching people on the job. And let me tell you, the good and bad of that, like before I went to coaching school, I was sort of coaching people on the job and I was coaching them to leave my business. So I was really interested in their career and I did inspire them and we talk a lot, but it would lead to them leaving because I'd inspire them to do something. You know, I remember one side leading up to New Year's I gave up This survey, which was like really in depth, like, you know, what's something you'd liked as a kid, what's something that you studied in college, what's something you've always wanted to do as a career, and three people, including my manager, who was about to start to take over for me, came to me, literally within a few weeks of each other, and I got to tell you, that survey really made me realize what I need to do something else. So, so, two things came out of the coach approach leadership, one, I started hiring people who actually really were a better fit for a career in the pet industry. So I can coach them authentically in the pet industry, and you know, not feel like I'm trying to, like, you know, push him into the industry. It's a beautiful thing. So I started coaching them, sort of mentoring them to become learn, you know, what I had learned, and find ideas that they like, and we've created a lot of interesting businesses from it, you know, related to dog sports, and dog grooming and dog training, like, really interesting niches. So it's, I'd say it's a, that's the big, that's the major difference. I went from workers and employees to an environment where I was almost there, mentor more,
Collin 06:18
it sounds like to that you looked at the people around you and saw where their strengths were. And then, you know, as you said, like, coach them into this other stuff. So how did that impact the the pet sitting business that you were running?
Josh 06:30
Oh, it's been amazing, because part of what I'm saying, I think, is reflective of this idea. And itself, part of it, I think, is reflective of the next generation, the next generations, they, they want more responsibility, but I'd say my generation and before it did, or at least, like they expect more responsibility. And while a lot of people in my generation see that as a bad thing, I see it as amazing in the sense that they're sending not even with more pain, necessarily. They want to be a bigger part of things. And you give them more responsibility, and they work harder, and they do more work. And they're happier. Like, how's that about? You know, I think what it is, it's that fear of control and giving up control. And so that that thing that led to my initial problem is now sort of like the muscles, it's becoming stronger. It's becoming a strength of mine. And you know, you're not worried about that as much.
Collin 07:34
Well, I think part of that, too, is being okay. And trusting people that they can handle that responsibility. Was that was that something that you ever struggled with?
Josh 07:42
Yeah, I'd say. So. There's, there's the fear. There's, there's a concern of safety, as we've discussed in terms of, you know, God forbid, a dog gets off leash or someone does something in someone's apartment, there's that. And then there's just, I think that's a big one for me, honestly, I think, you know, my design is, I have a strong danger, awareness, I'll call it I think a lot of great pet professionals have danger awareness. And so it makes a great dog walker, because you're really mindful of safety. And you know, things on the ground, other gods, when you're going in and out of buildings, things like that. I know when I say buildings, to some of you who are listening, you're going into homes, individual single homes, but for others, you know, we're going into buildings where there might be 50 to 100 people living in the building. And, you know, there might be a dog in the elevator or a dog jump in the elevator with you. So there's a lot more action,
Collin 08:46
what got you over that hump to start in trusting that that people others could actually perform the duties that you are doing?
Josh 08:55
Well, it's a great question. You know, I think there's a few things. One of them is I have always had this mindset that, you know, I do feel overall confident in the walkers I've hired and the sitters and the trainers, in terms of the job they've done. I'd sort of embrace the fact that this might always be hard for someone like me, dealing with that, but I've also done everything possible to lessen the chance of something happening, like, you know, we use, we were very early, one of the earliest in terms of using rock climbing belts, wearing them with like a carabiner attached to the dog. We're really big on turning the walkers, the equipment, you know, they have to get tested and putting on the equipment. We have like a four week training program, actually, before we let someone completely on their own. So we put in policies and procedures, but part of it is it's sort of just coming to terms with the fact that It's a tough part of the job for someone who's certainly minded. But it's sort of like using a suit, every trade you have is two sides a positive and a negative. So to me, it's using a positive side of my concern for safety by helping other people be more safe in general. So, you know, it's really try and make it a benefit.
Collin 10:27
Throughout 2020, many businesses actually ended up adding a lot of services or changing up the services that they did offer just to stay afloat and keep their businesses operational, going through what you've gone in, in expanding and then kind of changing how the business was structured. What advice would you give to those businesses so that they can stay streamlined and focused in their work?
Josh 10:50
That's a great question. And I'll go back to, I think there's a similar theme of, you have to not be so scared. So many pet businesses that start to grow, become really scared of people robbing their clients, and people robbing their ideas of you know, that they can be destroyed, so to speak. And they spend a lot of time and energy concentrated on this. And what I've grown to just believe, is if you concentrate, if you're always concentrating on your business, in terms of making it better for your customers, making it better for your walkers, just trying to make the best business possible. Nothing can ever destroy your company, like you might have some bad things happen, you might have some clients stole, you might have some people leave, who, you know, you're not you're not thrilled with. But people get really distracted with those type of concerns. And, you know, there's a quote that I've heard, I think it was Mark Cuban who said, perfection is the enemy of progress. And so if you're looking for this perfect world, you know, I used to tell people who would help me manage my companies, you know, you have to find perfection in the imperfection. Because there's never going to be perfection in this industry. It's messy. There's human lives, there's traffic, there's animal lives, there's housing, there's landlords, there's people on the street, there's so many different things that can come up on a daily walk or a daily drive. And we're in the middle of all of it, right? Like we are on the pavement. That's what our industry is. And you just have to grow, to be able to roll with it. Be the calm leader, if you have people working for you. If not, you have to try and coach yourself to be calm. And not not let the fear of anything destroying your company, you know, guide your decisions, if you just always keep moving forward and staying positive. You know, it doesn't guarantee bad things won't happen. It just I think it guarantees you'll be a happier person and very likely more successful in your business.
Collin 13:18
Do you think that fear comes from a feeling of imposter syndrome? Or is that just purely out of an overabundance of caution? Because as you're talking, it's like, I'm realizing as a business owner, like you know, all of the cracks in the foundation, you know, all the stuff that you've had to stuck over to keep it up and moving. And so as you grow, that's when you're at the top I can I'm sure it feels more like you built a house of cards as opposed to something strong foundation.
Josh 13:49
I think it's really well said, I think when we start our businesses, there's more of a reckless, reckless abandon is not the right wording after I just complimented you're winning. But there's more of a freedom. I feel people fear. There's a line in the movie Wall Street, the first one the good one, and it says, I knew how poor I was. So I made a little money. And I think that quote works really well in our industry where people don't feel necessarily like they have anything to protect until they create it. And that's what I'm saying is that, oh my god, the first few years of my business the way I just kept going and going and nothing could stop me and you know, a lot of rough things happened but I kept moving forward and forward important. Okay, so you're one of those things that happens, actually, what Sure. Yeah. I had this really pretty famous customer. And they were huge customer was, I think it was almost $2,000 a week. That's what we did. And I'm talking beginning of the day multiple times during the day. At night, seven days a week, and they started to not pay, they started to go on vacation. And the next thing I know, the bill ran up to almost $1,000. And I would proved, I had some kind of a service, and I'd had a walker do part of the service. So I paid that Walker, probably two or $3,000 out of pocket. And so that money was gone. So basically, you know, we then instead of paying the bill, they ended service, and I'm sitting there thinking, I'm not going to ever get that money, I've just paid out a few $1,000. And this is early in my business. So that few $1,000 out of pocket was like everything I have. And I can't even tell you the depression, I started to feel because you know, I was feeling great, like business was going great, and all this money. And then all of a sudden, it's like I'm broke. And I just felt terrible. And so in the midst of that anxiety, I remember waking up one morning, and I was like in a place of depression. And I had these huge garbage bags full of gift bags that I used to go out and give people and targeted marketing. And I went to the dog room. And I just start walking up to people and I'm giving out the bags and you know, talking to people and that means you're a woman, this woman I knew she came on she says oh my God, you're so good with, you know, doing this and so good with people. And I'm just sitting there like, you kidding me? Like, how can I come off girl, I'm so depressed. And a few weeks later, that I can't get into too much. But I was able to get the money. And I got it all in one shot, there was the most money I've ever received in one check in my life. And I took that money, and I immediately got back then credit cards is not that common. And so I got a credit card machine, I invested a ton of marketing, other investments in the company. And that's when we took off, that's when we blew up. So and that's just one example, right? Like, you know, there's some really hard stuff to go my business. And so my point is, is that when you get really large, it's that quote from Wall Street a little bit again, I never knew Apple was around a little money, and you start to defend what you have, sometimes more than continuing to innovate, and to grow. And so for a while, I got lost. And you know, I feel great, because I got back on track. But I really try and help people not get lost. You know, usually, there's a lot of people in our industry who suffer from burnout. And I've explained my own burnout. So it's personal to me, like, you know, I really try and help people but that that topic of control and giving up control. It's, it's a tough one for people to embrace because this code is going to hit home for some of us. And I've even said it to people who work for me before in this program. I've said I think you'd rather be in control than be successful. And I think there's a lot of people who would rather be in control, even if it meant they're not successful.
Collin 18:13
Have you heard about time to pet Claire from acting critter sitters
18:17
has this to say
18:18
time to pet has honestly revolutionized how we do business. My sitters can work much more independently because they have ongoing access to customer and pet information without relying on me. I save hours upon hours of administrative time on billing, processing payments and generating paychecks. If you
Collin 18:35
are looking for a new petsitting software for your business, give time to pet a try. As a listener of pet sitter confessional, you'll get 50% off your first three months when you sign up at time to pet.com slash confessional. How do you see that manifesting in a business owner as they're as they're growing an operating? How do you walk that that balance between being in control versus being successful?
Josh 19:03
That is the big question. I mean, did you used to watch Kitchen Nightmares? Yes. Yeah, those are? Yeah. Cool. That's the running theme, isn't it is that people will literally something's not hasn't been working for like 710 years. They're putting their like, hundreds of 1000s of dollars in debt. One of the greatest chefs, you know, most successful chefs in the world comes in and they they still some of them won't bend. They're like no, I gotta keep my last seven customers instead of getting 50 new. And I honestly think this is a heavy issue for a lot of people I think you know, all any of us who have control issues, which is the majority of people we have it for different reasons, usually something in our childhood, you know how we were raised something in schools, you know, a tragedy trauma. What What have you, we all have our reason? And then it comes down to how much do we work on it? You know, to get better at it. But, you know, you ask a specific question about how it manifests in the businesses. And, you know, I think there's the topic. The big one is if you involve other people in your business, that is, the biggest test for someone in terms of control, is, you start out as an individual dog, Walker, pet sitter doctrine, or whatever it is, and the brand is you. Some people even sometimes call the brand after their name. And then you're going to bring in other people who are going to represent you. And it can be really scary. And sometimes we can be horrible managers, because we, you know, we haven't learned to trust yet. And I think, people who have major issues with that path to figure out if they can work on it, and even be upfront with the person who's working with them that you know, that they need to work on it. Or there's some people who maybe would be better off, not hiring people, to be honest to those people who would be better off finding a way to increase how much they can make themselves. But, you know, I think what you have to do is, is that concept that, you know, perfection is the enemy of progress. So in the pet industry, to grow, there's going to be some mistakes that happen. And sometimes what happens is the moment there's a mistake, we don't see, I knew it, I knew that it doesn't work, and we run back and we forget it. But instead of going, Okay, let me look at this, let me examine the issue, try and find it, you know, a solution, and keep moving forward. Now, I'm going to balance what I'm saying out with safety, I do think that safety has to be highly serious. And our businesses, you know, with the paths, and you know, you have to have people knowledgeable with pets working with you. But the other stuff, you know, making a mistake, making a billing mistake, you know, forgetting to do something in a client's home that's not safety oriented, especially, I think we have to give someone the chance to grow and improve. And, you know, often often people who complain about the people who work for them are, you know, are sometimes hiring the wrong people or not putting enough time into the house? Before I go into too many topics. You asked good questions.
Collin 22:56
You're good. You know, I appreciate that. Because,
22:59
you know, you mentioned
Collin 23:01
giving, giving people permission to grow and improve. And I think that, that starts with ourselves. As, as business owners, you know, we start out solopreneurs, we start out by ourselves. And we get these things in operation and how we operate, but giving ourselves permission to change and adapt over time. So we let go of that control, that perceived control that we thought we had, opening ourselves up to new opportunities. And I think 2020 kind of forced our hands, a lot of our hands in that where we had to immediately let go of control. Because it was taken from us. Right, and and then we start then we had to start looking for for other opportunities.
Josh 23:43
I'm so prone to start asking questions myself, because I'm a coach. I'm showing that interview. Yeah. Okay. I was just gonna ask you, what type of changes do you find that you've made or were forced to make?
Collin 23:56
Well, so one of some things that we we had to do was we had to change a lot about our booking process, because we were still doing a lot most of it manually. And the behavior of our clients changed to where it was real, a lot of expectations for immediate access, or on the spot booking preferences for them. And so I know, that was something that we had kind of resisted, because we liked the personal touch. We liked the process that that had in it.
24:24
But
Collin 24:25
that stopped working because of the expectations of the clients. So we did have to shift and start offering a different way to book and actually different way to access and contact us when the when the clients were ready for their service.
Josh 24:38
And would you say that it's actually improved? Thanks. Yeah, yeah, it is.
24:44
It has
Josh 24:46
anything, right. Yeah. Yeah.
Collin 24:51
And who knows how much longer it would have taken to get to that point that 2029 happened, right.
Josh 24:58
Yes, well, That's something I think we discussed was the pandemic has sped up. Certainly industry changes, and, you know, technological changes somewhere in the realm of three to five years. Yeah. Like, push it ahead, where it's happening now. Yeah. It has, and I think, sorry, you know, please like,
Collin 25:25
Oh, no, I was just thinking about, you know, when we think back to the some of the biggest changes to the industry from 2020. I mean, that's, that's got to rank up there with some of the major impacts, was just logically bringing in forcing a whole bunch of the crowd forward.
Josh 25:43
Yeah. And that's a good thing, like, you know, in the same way, you're noticing some of the benefits of it, I think, it certainly is a good thing. You know, just in terms of credit cards, as well, there's so much data that shows that people spend more on credit cards than other forms of payment. So, you know, that in itself is good. This is interesting, because in terms of this topic, I think I thought about the things that are gonna become more difficult in terms of the industry this year, but you're making me happy to hear a good side of it as well. Have you seen in terms of businesses you talk to? Have you seen other changes? You know, with them maybe becoming more, you know, like hustling more and trying to become more resourceful? with everything going on?
Collin 26:38
I would say yes, I would say that, for who we talk to, and kind of who we stay in touch with that 2020 really broke the mold for what they thought their business was going to be. And it was kind of like this, you know, however, many stages of grief owners had to go through to note to say, the business I thought I was going to have in 2020 is no longer existing.
27:03
I accept that.
Collin 27:04
And now I have to seize the opportunities that I can while they're available to me. And so it was, it was kind of this this little mind shift that happened throughout the year.
Josh 27:18
It's interesting, because it almost feels like we're circling back to the discussion of when someone first starts and have a sort of just go for it a little bit more. You know, there could be a little bit of that. With companies.
Collin 27:35
Yeah, I think I think absolutely, that, again, when you almost had to act like it was your first day on the job, because, especially for the businesses who lost 100% of their existing clients, right. They had no, no new bookings. And they had no reoccurring.
27:51
One of them.
Collin 27:52
Yeah, okay. Yeah. So,
27:55
yeah, you know,
Collin 27:56
it was like, Okay, I have zero, just like I did on day one, when I started 510 20 years ago, what do I do, given everything that's going on?
Josh 28:05
Well, I'll tell you, in terms of our side, the service that has really blown up for us has been dogs running. And, you know, that is partly where I'm located. And a lot because of the pandemic, because everyone went and got a dog. You know, when they say the shelters are empty, they were really being serious. And show there's a lot of people who need dog training. And here's the amazing thing, I talked to a lot of dog trainers. Many of them are saying that dogs training is better virtually, because the customers have to do the homework. And often, people who hire a dog trainer, and I get that we'll figure it out. And you know, let me slack on the homework. But in this environment, they have to do the homework. And they're seeing great, but I mean, there's some trainers who have heard they really want to stick to this, you know, forever. So, I think that that's another example maybe as an improvement, you know, something we've learned during this time?
Collin 29:13
Well, one thing that you did a little while ago at this point was you kind of cold called or got in contact with a lot of pet owners and who had used services like rover and wag and you would ask them about some differences or what they thought of what a pet sitter was. And so I'd like for you to talk about that article and the process that you put in behind that. And I guess give us a definition of what would you say, clients or pet owners? How would they describe what a pet sitter is? In 2021?
Josh 29:48
It was an interesting, it was an interesting experience, to say the least I did some of the interviews live on my Facebook page. And I'd be looking down at the comments and people will be like, Oh my god, I can't believe With the rover, you know, so just to be specific, what I did is I solicited 100, rover pet. People who use rover their own paths. And I did interviews with them. And I would ask them things related to what do you see the benefit of rover over the term I use, let's say, you were saying Exeter, I call it independent businesses. That's sort of the comparison. I've used to Riverwalk. And, you know, they were talking about things like they believed a rover, Walker was insured, but they weren't so sure about independence. And they would say that they love the rover, they love doing business on a trust. And they trusted the people on it, they sort of associate quality service with people on the platform. So the platform itself is carrying a lot of weight for these people. And in terms of our industry, the Rober parents saw us is more, you know, the Wild West, like not really, under any supervision, not necessarily insured, and not seeing the benefit. Our industry over there's in terms of quality of service. So it took a lot of patience and meditation through the conversations for me not to be like chocolate. But the truth is, is that this is the mindset of a lot of pet parents. And, you know, a lot of them, they just want their dog, they have their chest rubs, and they think everything's fine. And and, obviously, you know, we see a big difference between the independent market and the rover lag. And to answer your question about that. To me, in general, I see an independent, professional or pet business, as someone who, on the on the hole is usually more serious about the job, they are very likely doing it full time, they get seen a lot of the neighborhood, they get known people know their face, if they do something really stupid with a dog, it gets you noticed, someone knows who they are. The problem I have with these apps is that on top of the fact that a lot of the people are not very well prepared to do the job. They don't get known, they don't do the job consistently. And so when bad things happen, it's not picked up on the same way. There's not patterns of consistency. And, you know, if you work, if you if you're a customer and you hire an independent pet service, like yours in mind, there can be a lot of benefits there where you have the supervision of an owner, the philosophies of an owner, you might have a manager in the company, you might have multiple walkers who, you know, there's pure expectations. You know, if a walker sees another guy in the company doing a really bad job, he might speak up about it, these things matter. And I'm not sitting here saying that our industry is perfect. I think it's far from perfect. I just think that the chance of serious a serious pet professional coming out of our industry is much higher than, you know, the ecosystems, I think the Akki ecosystems are more like someone who wants to make some money on the side, do it once in a while. It's sort of like an Airbnb or Uber for dogs. And so I'm not speaking down on those people. I'm not speaking down on the platforms. But you know, some of these platforms are looking to start dog training. And, you know, you just can't compare the history of knowledge and seriousness between the industries and the last thing I'll just say is that rover and why walkers are independent contractors. And so the apps legally try and have a standoff approach in terms of how they do the job. Now, even if you have a contract to add a pet service, a pet service can have a point of view about how they work with pets. You know, they can invite people to take classes, and, you know, they can motivate people to to expand their knowledge. And that's a big difference to me. So, you know, to me, there's a reason dog trainers usually come from the dog walking world. And it's, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of serious people doing, but we also have to improve our industry. But that's the difference I see between the two
Collin 34:59
is jarring. Do Hear
35:00
that the clients that
Collin 35:02
the customers have these perspectives? So, in their mind, you know, you mentioned that they were kind of putting it that the app was pulling a lot of the weight here. Do you think that these views have arisen because of this just the pure superiority of the app? Or are there messaging problems within the pet care industry
Josh 35:22
at large? That's a great question, as well. soak it in for a second here. I do think it's a bit of both. I think that when you find an app, that you use a lot, if it works well, and your gallery appears happy, and you're getting pictures, and you know, the, the expectation for quality care is not that high, I find you send pictures, you send feedback. You know, the discussion is not about someone noticing that a dog had been in its stall or swallowed some, you know, it's not about safety and things like that. So our industry, definitely, I feel steel has been sensationalized. In the papers, when something happens, it's a really big store that has now become rover and wag rover and lag have had a lot of bad press. But before them, the newspapers would sensationalize a story. And customers, definitely, I think they were worried about that they are worried about that. And there's something about an app that I think can calm people's shoes. You know, there's apps I use, like Craigslist, and some others, where there's been some CAD stuff on those platforms. But, you know, I have a connection to them. So, yeah, I do think it's a bit of both,
Collin 37:04
you mentioned that the expectations of service are pretty, are pretty low already. So how does that impact the the purchasing intent of the client when they go to compare these different offerings for their care for their pet?
Josh 37:18
That's right, that's the thing is that I think they start to live on the app, the app becomes the ecosystem. And, of course, these, these apps are in a race to increase their offerings, to you know, they started to offer cats today, I know, dog trainings on in the future. You know, these type of businesses are, you know, there's Banfield, that those jobs, there are large corporations that, you know, they're trying to create their own ecosystem. So in a sense, you know, rover or wag, it's like, you know, they want to become their own little Google for a peptide. And that locks, our type of business out. And that's the thing is, when someone gets in that ecosystem, and they want to search, they appear to be searching on Google less. So you know, there's less of a chance they're gonna find us. And obviously, you know, we don't have the marketing budgets that they do. Not all doom and gloom, this is part of the reason I created spark and go is actually to have a platform that represents independent pet businesses in the way we operate.
Collin 38:32
Yeah, so I was gonna say, you know, let's go ahead and dive right in, because we're kind of leading there. So yeah, how did Sparky go come about? Well,
Josh 38:40
it's a good leader, because a lot of it is reflective of what we just discussed, which is, I've seen all these apps popping up. And, you know, I'm in New York City, where New York City is such a large pet market, that we have our own mini, Grover and Wags just here in New York City that only operates better like DC by and, you know, the thing I find, I don't, you know, I don't look to hate on anyone. But when I look at a lot of these companies, what I find interesting if you go to the LinkedIn profiles, is you'll find 150 extremely accomplished software, people, but what you won't find the best trainers in the world, the best dog pet equipment, people in the world, you know, the greatest thinkers is sort of, like improve the dog's life. And, you know, that bothers me because they have a lot of money to play with. And I want that money to play with. I want it to our version of rover and wag. But yeah, you know, I would say that to me, I felt I saw the tea leaves to the early, you know, over 10 years ago, I started to See some of these changes, moving away from independent pet businesses. And, you know, store that stands out for me, as you know, I told you about how my one of my pets had died. And like many of us, I was literally like a zombie for a few weeks and just sitting in bed. And in my wife took me outside for a walk. And we went for a walk, and I'm sitting on a corner, and I looked across the street, and I see this dog walker, walk up to the curb, and in New York City, very busy curbs. And you know, she stayed back from the curb, and she put the dog in a sit, stay, and everything was just so fluid and the dog was smiling. And she, you know, she put up your hand, and then the light changed to give the dog a treat as they started walking, and they were smiling at each other. And like, I just saw that. So I know that that's a good dog walker, but the pet parent doesn't get to see that the pet parent is making their decision on what quality services, from pictures from notes, you know, very little of it is based on what they see, with the person actually doing the job. And even if they didn't see someone doing the job, many people wouldn't understand the difference between that Walker and say someone who really doesn't know what they're doing. And so, you know, the platform is meant to Yes, hopefully put a bigger spotlight on those who are awesome. And then to help out the next group of people who are looking to get in the industry to go a better direction to go a direction, you know, maybe toward more of the mind of a dog trainer, you know, and things like that. And one of the things that I don't mean a better direction, it's just, you know, the direction I think, leads to better. Myself, the one of the reason, big reason why I created Sparky go is I'm really interested in sort of indexes and directories that take locations, and, and services and products and makes them easy to find. So Yelp and Google are the two main ones for industry for like getting your business up and getting reviews. But you know, in many ways, I feel like they have failed our industry in terms are many industries, but you know, it's like one size fits all. And they're not designed for the realities of the professional, the pet parent. And you know, like Yelp was designed around the idea that everybody had, like a commercial space like they had an office. Yeah, you know, a pet professional might work in 15 neighborhoods or something. And so spark and go will allow you to rank highly in all those different neighborhoods. Sparky go will also put a big emphasis on specialties. So you know, sure, there's dog walkers, pet sitters, dog trainers, there's all different types of pet professionals. But there's also specialists within those. There's dog walkers who are better for senior dogs. There are dog walkers who can administer medicine, you know, I can just go on and on. I mean, for each type of pet profession, we probably have 30 4050 service pages knishes for each of those that someone can find someone by. So they're never going to find that and Yelp and Google. Right. It's not a niche service based, specialty based search. Yeah,
Collin 43:35
I think that that addresses several problems that are faced, you know, you mentioned things like service area and these specialized care. Because if we are, if we're trying to compete with the the SEO, the marketing the these other kinds of campaigns, you know, you do need to be able to be surfaced easily for the right services that you're going to be providing.
Josh 43:59
Yeah, you just said a mouthful, which is the SEO of the local SEO, you know, competing with the marketing of these apps. Here's the thing if our industries united and you know, partly united on Sparky go also united and other places. But if they're united in Sparky go for what they offer where they offer it things like that the ability to be contacted. There is the possibility the strong possibility that spark ego could rank higher than the rover in the Alps. And by using the exact same techniques radio, but right now what people are doing is they are promoting their their Yelp pages. But most people in our industry hate Yelp. Yeah, they don't even want to go to their pages. They're scared of reading the reviews. They send people to put reviews and I'm always good on the page. You know, The review structure is going to be very important on our platform, in terms of trying to make it really fair, for the pet professional, you know, I think it's something that however it starts on our platform is going to change due to feedback from the pet professionals. And you don't want to mention one other thing, which is, Sparky go is going to put a big emphasis on referral partners, people in your area to offer non competing services, who you can even have a bookmarking page so you can easily bookmark other people on spark ago, you're going to have your own bookmarking page. And it's going to be a really nice way to try and keep people in this circle to try and make sure they don't leave for one of those other ecosystems we talked about. Whether it's a value in a different neighborhood, or an animal rescue or a dog boarder, whatever it is, you're going to have this little nucleus, and who knows there's a chance in the future people want it, you might even be able to monetize the referral process. But most importantly, people like to refer. And it's going to make it much easier to do.
Collin 46:13
I like that idea again, of of looking across the industry and trying to raise everybody up around us, because that's going to highlight the best of the best that's going to highlight the people and the passion that they have behind them and start putting forward these this unified message as an industry.
Josh 46:31
Yeah. It's gonna be hard. It's gonna take it is gonna take a lot of work. I don't think our industry is used to working together. Right? You know, maybe depends on if the time is right. where, you know, people will both need and maybe want the help of others accepting the help of others, which, you know, just to bring back the whole control thing. I think, actually, an interesting thing with control is accepting. And not being too prideful, and Sparky, go, let alone we can help you it's all free. And see, the thing about it is I'm really good at local SEO. And your profile page on the Sparky go will be completely designed for local SEO. And so I'd say there's a good chance that people will be able to get more customers in my entire spike ago than they will with their own website. There's a lot of opportunities.
Collin 47:38
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Josh 48:38
Tell me what you think as well. I mean, there will be normalization in some areas. But I also think in some areas like New York City, certain things are going to be changed forever. That doesn't mean they're gone. That doesn't mean you can't operate it just I think in some areas, things are changed forever in terms of the service industry.
Collin 49:01
I agree. I think a lot of that, you know, as you said, the services that haven't been wiped off entirely, maybe have have reduced or maybe needing reframed in how we're messaging to them. I know for us we've had we've had clients that, you know, for years and years, they were just fine with their dogs and the number of times I've heard them talk about how they were so tired of their dogs around them. And we just needed a break. It was like, Oh, you know, you know, you asked him two years ago or at the beginning of last year, they would have been like, Oh, I love my dogs and want them around me all the time. And now they're like I can just take them for a little longer just a little longer.
Josh 49:42
It's this talking to the parent of two kids. Same thing I told them last night, I said, I said your parents, you know, I told them we're not meant to spend 24 hours a day together for years. So this is not been a normal situation. So odd few extra arguments or you feel weird, sometimes. It's understandable, this is not a normal situation.
Collin 50:14
But I think I think that speaks to just how we how we message, our services to meet those clients needs, right, like how we, how we, we talked about this a little bit earlier, are doing our part to think for the customers to think for the clients, and to really see where that help is needed to solve those problems for them, because they still have things that need solve, they still have services, they just need to have the right phrasing to cue them into exactly how you're going to help them with that.
Josh 50:47
Yeah, that's well said. I mean, do you offer flexible scheduling? Like I used to flexible scheduling? Is that your main type of service? Yeah, we
Collin 50:56
we have been pretty flexible. in times past two, that was something that we kind of kept standard, just to some extent, you know, we've been a little bit we'll be more flexible going into or through last year, just because, you know, we realized the behavior of a lot of our clients where they were going to wait until Thursday at 3pm, to decide if they were going to be leaving at Friday, at eight or 9am in the morning, because of all of the travel restrictions and changing and, you know, flight cancellations were way through the roof because of, you know, rerouting people through
51:35
cities. So
Collin 51:36
we recognize that and just said, You
Josh 51:38
know what, it's fine. That's smart. Yeah, yeah, I think flexible scheduling. It's, everything we're saying is is sort of resorting back to when we all first started, it's sort of anytime, anyplace a little bit till, till things stabilize, you know, thinking thinking towards the future here.
Collin 51:56
What is what's some advice or recommendations you would give to for for long term? You know, at this point, I think it's still safe to say, you know, long term survival in the industry?
Josh 52:06
Yes. Well, I think it's a new encompass a few things we've discussed today, which, one of the big things I tell people is to increase how much money you make yourself. I say the worst day for professionals, when they stop working with animals themselves, that's the most fun, you also don't have to share that money with anybody else. And so if you can, you know, try and increase how much you make that might be, you know, if you can offer a premium service, like dog training or dog grooming, like learning a premium service can increase, you know, you can make him one hour, which you make, usually in two or three hours. So, looking at premium services is definitely one thing, I recommend that people, if you do have people who work for you, it's like, go back to the idea of empowering them. When you make them feel like there's a, there's no ceiling in terms of how much they can learn how much they can grow, and how much they can make. You get more out of people, and you get happier people. And again, I find and I think a lot of people do that to young people today. They almost demand and they wants to stick around if they can't get these things. So but that's a good thing. That's a good thing. But with that, again, comes back to this thing of Don't be scared about the ramifications of, you know, oh, if I teach this person, you know, what if they robbed from me or steal from me, you know, staying focused on your company. And, you know, I think in the end, everything should work out if you stay focused on your company, and your customers. But the big ones, I would say, are the premium services. That's really the main thing I would say to someone is increased how much you make yourself and concentrate on premium services because as they have proven, you know, those services are continued, continue to thrive even during the pandemic.
Collin 54:27
I did want to touch on the training aspect because you've mentioned that several times now. So what kind of recommendations or advice would you give to someone listening who wants to learn more about being a trainer or actually become a certified trainer
Josh 54:42
waffling. I'm gonna process by saying I'm not a trainer. So the advice I'm giving is really a collection from people who are really smart people in the dog training community. And it just does seem like you need to find a reputable program. I used to think that, you know, maybe people could find some good books and take some online courses, but a reputable online program, and we're going to have a resource page, it's far to go, that's going to have things like this sort of like a roadmap laid out. And that's going to be from the advice of really top people in the industry, and actually go to a school, it's sort of part of going to school, they set you up with a doctor to apprentice with. So, you know, go to a program, take the program, it might be something you have to pay off over a few years. But when you compare the price of the dog training program to go into college, it's, it's really not that expensive. I mean, when you hear, you know, five 710 $1,000, a does, that's a lot of money. I'm not saying you know, I'm not saying it's not, but if you can spread out the payments over a few years, and you're committed to it, I really think it's a good investment. While you're practicing, or even after your practice, you know, it's pretty rare that a dog trainer doesn't dog walk or pet set or both. So it's a great way to start to, you know, gradually involved in training with cats and getting to know customers. And yeah, that's, that's really the route, I would recommend the program and the apprenticeship just seem like absolute must
Collin 56:27
second that to the enth degree, I think it's a great way to start adding bundles or adding these premium or premium services and just, you know, raise prices across the board, because now you are a trainer, and you can integrate it into everything you do and all the services that you provide. And it just kind of again, just raises everything up
Josh 56:47
a couple notches. Exactly. And I mean, your your pet service becomes a teacher this dog wishes, you know, both in terms of Yes, there's a lot of profit potential. But there's, you know, in the beginning, as a trainer, you want as many varied situations as you can grow, right to be able to learn to deal with anything. And, or at least to start to figure out what you know, you might start to decide you don't want to work with aggressive dogs, you know, that experience will help you. I mean, in terms of being a dog trainer, as well pose, you know, dog walking and pet the pet sitting world. You can approach other dog walking and pet sitting companies and offer your services to them. For dogs within the company. As we all know, you know, your threat of losing a dog, if it has issues on the walk, if you can't get it outside, if it has anxiety, stress, if it is aggression, these are all things that sometimes lead to, God forbid, the owner gives up the dog. But sometimes in other situations, you know, they go with a walk and train service or they go with daycare boarding, which is not the solution. But for that, and, you know, dog training, dog trainers, and dog walkers, pet sitters daycare boarding, that relationship to me is the most underutilized relationship in the pet service industry. Every single pet service of any type should if not have their own dog trainer have strong relationships with God trainers, this is just such an opportunity for benefiting the path and referral, you know, for both sides to profit. It's just it's a slam dunk. Josh,
Collin 58:37
I really appreciate you coming on the show today. And I'm so thankful for our conversation regarding coming together as an industry to raise the boat of everybody. And in our discussion around changing clients purchasing intent and behavior as you know, changes continue to happen to the industry. But I know we talked about an awful lot. And there's still so much more to all of this. So how can people check out Sparky go? And how can people get in touch with you and pick your brain on more of this?
Josh 59:08
Yeah, thanks for asking. Thanks for the great conversation very depict a lot of ideas I hadn't even thought about before today. The best place to go is Sparky go.com homepage, there's a link where you can sign up to be alerted when we launch. Please do that. And there's also a blog that's personally there. And there's your contact page. If you want to reach out to me, please do. I'm always happy to answer questions. I also help people with SEO and marketing. You know, so I'd love to speak.
Collin 59:41
Awesome. Josh again. Thank you so much. It was a real pleasure.
Josh 59:45
Me too. Yeah, thanks so much.
Collin 59:46
There's certainly a lot to unpack from my conversation with Josh. But to me the biggest takeaway is the consistently changing client expectations and purchasing intent of our clients and customers. What this means As we move through 2021, we will have to be really sensitive to how people are changing their habits, and how we can best adapt to that how we can start using better language to speak to their needs, and how we can help solve that. It means that we as an industry have to come together if we want to see lasting positive changes and influences for everybody. normalization of behaviors and expectations happening quickly when the majority of people are after something. That also means that when the industry is working together and everybody's on the same page, we can elicit some really awesome positive changes for everybody moving forward. I want to thank our sponsors time to pet and pet sitters international for making today's show possible. And we would absolutely love to hear how you have experienced changing client expectations and about how you've had to streamline or stay adaptive and stay in tune with the needs of your customers. Thank you so much for listening this week. We'll be back again soon.
